The Vouris Podcast

The Startup Growth Podcast E13:

Episode 13: How to improve conversions with creativity with Dale Dupree of The Sales Rebellion
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The Startup Growth Podcast E13

Episode 13: How to improve conversions with creativity with Dale Dupree of The Sales Rebellion

August 15, 2022

Kyle Vamvouris

Dale Dupree

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to Episode 13 of the Startup Growth Podcast!

We're joined today by Dale Dupree, founder of The Sales Rebellion, to talk about how to improve your conversions by getting creative and breaking the mold!


Dale Dupree x Vouris Episode


[00:00:00] Kyle Vamvouris: Dale, let's jump into it. How you doing 

[00:00:03] Dale Dupree: Straight up chilling bro. How about you? How are you doing? 

[00:00:06] Kyle Vamvouris: The opposite. I feel like I, I don't have enough chill. yeah, I'm actually just getting over COVID oddly enough, I lost my taste and smell today.

[00:00:16] Kyle Vamvouris: So I'm over here smelling candles. I feel great. 

[00:00:21] Dale Dupree: Yeah, that sucks, man. Well, I'm glad to see you here. Yes. Getting over COVID is a good thing. 

[00:00:25] Kyle Vamvouris: So living the dream. Well, I'm excited to chat today cuz you know oftentimes I feel when it comes to this conversation of like being more creative in your outreach, it

[00:00:34] Kyle Vamvouris: almost turns its nose up on some of like the being more data driven side and like where I come from, it's all like data. I wanna know everything people are doing. I wanna know the effectiveness of each channel and I try to optimize based on that data and when I talk to people about. Being more creative with their outreach.

[00:00:50] Kyle Vamvouris: And I point to you all the time for this year, the, you know, the goat of this I often have trouble like navigating through the data piece of it. And I wanted to bring you on there [00:01:00] for us to have a conversation, because I think you can have both, they're not mutually exclusive, but often the debate gets mutually, you know, gets split in half and it's'

[00:01:08] Kyle Vamvouris: no, you should do creative and just never think about anything, data driven. And then there's other people that are like, I need data for everything. So I wanna kick this off a little bit with more like questions from me to you around how you think of measuring effectiveness of some of the creative approaches you have.

[00:01:25] Kyle Vamvouris: And then I wanna dive into some creative ideas and then we'll open up for Q and A for everybody. Does that sound fair? 

[00:01:30] Dale Dupree: Let's do it, sounds good.

[00:01:32] Kyle Vamvouris: So, how do you think about when you're trying different creative approaches, can you share with me, how are you thinking about measuring effectiveness? How do you do it?

[00:01:41] Dale Dupree: So I, I think the best way to answer this is to start with the identity of what creativity truly is as opposed to what people think it is which is that if, if we create a gimmick per se it will always be a gimmick. But if we create something that expresses an [00:02:00] emotion, right? If we create something that can be connected with, by another human, if we do something that gives another person an experience that goes beyond just a gimmick, then we are really truly tapping into what creativity is.

[00:02:15] Dale Dupree: I always tell people, I say, I ask. If you go to, if you've ever been to Disney, did you have to get three quotes from all the other theme parks to decide like right who to go to? Or did you go to Disney? And the reason people go to Disney is not, not just cuz they're the goat of theme parks, right? But also because once you've been, especially the experiences none, you, you, there is no comparison when you're in line for 60 minutes to ride a ride that's two and a half minutes long, right? It's an immersive experience. It connects with you emotionally. It provides something much deeper than just there's a ride here.

[00:02:53] Kyle Vamvouris: Right.

[00:02:53] Dale Dupree: And, and it tells a story. It weaves in and out of that story as well, too, the future state, [00:03:00] the present state, the past tense as well too. There's a lot of little emotional triggers that happen throughout that process. And so not to say that salespeople have to become rollercoaster architects and, and go work at Disney for two years to figure out creativity but the point is, is that in sales, typically what happens is we put on a tie, we put on a suit, we take off the hat, we slick back our hair. Yours looks great by the way. And, and we don't allow ourselves to be the authentic human that we were a couple minutes before we changed our clothes. Instead we, we stick to the script, we do it by the book and we put everything into a box, which I think personally I'm actually, I'm so far against it, that I started a company called The Sales Rebellion because I, I personally think if we would stop doing things by the book and be more experiential and connect with people differently, then it would just literally change the way that people do business with us altogether. So, so starting from that perspective, I think the next thing that you have to think about [00:04:00] based on your question is how do I execute something that sequenced, nuanced, and that really truly gives an experience to people. And that's also not something that's gonna take me six months to create. Right, so, and, and if you're not a really creative person, that's okay. You know, there's, there's a lot of really great methods to tap into creativity, or there's a lot of really great people out there that provide these types of services, like The Sales Rebellion.

[00:04:28] Dale Dupree: Cheap plug there that can help you tap into those things to say, well, what do you sell and how do you sell it? What, why would people buy from you? What does it fix? Right? What are the intrinsic motivators? What are the extrinsic motivators? And by creating all like, just a simple formula around what your creative approach will be, you can then take it to this, this opportunistic state of sequencing and developing relationships with people.

[00:04:51] Dale Dupree: And that's where we measure it. So, you know, it can be as simple as like starting with a business card and just like changing the format of it. These are my old school, original business [00:05:00] cards, one of the first creative things I ever did. It's a copier machine with like a pancake batch on the side and a turkey and an oven in the bottom and like a coffee machine in the middle.

[00:05:08] Dale Dupree: And that's funny, it simply states on the back that I could make your life easier with the right copier solution and just has my cell phone. 

[00:05:15] Kyle Vamvouris: So where did you get the idea to put that business card together? 

[00:05:18] Dale Dupree: That it, it truly comes from my time in the music industry. As I first started, as we first started looking at like, how do you promote yourself in the B2B world, I thought, well, in a band, like we're, we're street warriors, right. In, in the music world, we we're real warfare is what we are. We we're putting stickers of our our, our band, like in bathrooms and on telephone poles and anywhere that we can possibly do it without getting arrested or wearing shirts, we're, we're handing out posters.

[00:05:51] Dale Dupree: Everything's very tangible. And everything is, is, is hardcore entertaining and, and aesthetically pleasing as well, [00:06:00] too. So like, if you see a sticker that says Imperial, just the name of my band but it looks different and it's got some, there's some slickness to it. There's, there's something that attracts you.

[00:06:10] Dale Dupree: There's an emotion to it, then it starts to change. And so I said to myself, like, what do people wanna see? Like they don't wanna see a business card with my name on it. They wanna see a, a baby changing station and a coat rack on the side of a copy machine. Because like, these are the things that actually are persistent and consistent in their lives.

[00:06:25] Dale Dupree: Whereas a copy machine is like, Literally the devil to most people, especially when it's not working.

[00:06:31] Kyle Vamvouris: Right, right. 

[00:06:31] Dale Dupree: Because it's what, one of the most important things inside of a typical office environment, that's outside of like the SaaS world. Right. So if I'm an attorney, if I'm in real estate, right. A lot of the traditional roles of business, right.

[00:06:44] Dale Dupree: They still use copiers. People are probably even listening to us being like, dude, it's 2022, bro. There are guys out there making a million dollars a year selling copy machines in small little cities. Right. Because, and because people still need 'em. So. So that's really the creative approach where it comes from.

[00:06:59] Dale Dupree: It comes from [00:07:00] experience, comes from the entertainment world that I was in when I played music. And it comes from this identity of being more of a street warrior. I hate using that word in the sense of battle, but I love using it in the sense of being a servant leader. 

[00:07:12] Kyle Vamvouris: So tell me a bit more about the process.

[00:07:14] Kyle Vamvouris: So let's say you're going to try to create, or, or do you create, let me start with this question. Do you recycle the same creative ideas over and over again? Or do you try to come up with new ideas regularly? 

[00:07:27] Dale Dupree: So I think what's fun about the copier warriors methodology in general. By the way, like for anybody wondering how The Sales Rebellion was born, it's born on, on the dust and the bones and the grave of the copier warrior.

[00:07:38] Dale Dupree: Essentially, when I retired my copier cape I in my head, I kinda like killed the copier warrior and buried him, took all of his secrets and, and, you know, put them at a tomb in the middle of, you know, nowhere inside of a cave. And, and a bunch of rebels found me, right. Is the thought process. So, what I did though, is I took just like the normal, everyday average, typical [00:08:00] rep that would be listening to me on a daily basis or reading my content.

[00:08:05] Dale Dupree: I want people to understand that I've built this whole concept, not from this high executive point of view, but from the perspective of the guy that bled that sweat, that cried that experienced all the emotions, right. Going door to door for 13 plus years, even when I was a manager, you know, maintaining that status and doing those things with individuals.

[00:08:26] Dale Dupree: So, so everything that I created yeah is recycled into The Sales Rebellion. And the greatest part is that a lot of the concepts that I came up with so long ago, when I thought of them, I didn't say this is gonna strictly be a prospecting piece. I also thought, well, this could actually double as a nurturing piece.

[00:08:41] Dale Dupree: And, and I could put somebody into a, more of a living pipeline type ecosystem instead of just like a funnel. And I can create a nuance experiences for them. This could help me with closing. This could help me with after the sale, maintaining the relationship, for example, We got these fun letter campaigns.

[00:08:56] Dale Dupree: One of 'em in particular, the rebel letter campaign. This is a literal envelope. [00:09:00] As you can see. Yeah. So it has a big coffee stain on the front of it. It says coaster for you and the letter inside of it, it's got, you know, coffee drips all over it and yeah, yeah. Some cool coffee that's in here as well, too, but, but it can, it can double and triple and, and, and be used in different methodologies.

[00:09:18] Dale Dupree: As a salesperson inside of a sales cycle. So I could prospect you Kyle and say, Hey man, 90% of the sales and marketing you get is trash. You gotta throw it away. Anyway, I'm not, I'm not too keen on that. Let's help the environment out a little bit. So you'll fold this sucker up, turn it into a coaster. For yourself, right.

[00:09:35] Dale Dupree: Is the thought process, right? Funny when you have your first cup of Joe, but I can also use this as when someone's ghosting me. Right. If I can also use this as a request for a presentation, right? Hey, let's grab some coffee together. Right? There's there's so many things I can and use it for. 

[00:09:51] Kyle Vamvouris: So. Okay. I have a, I have a couple follow ups here, so I I've noticed this actually for a while.

[00:09:57] Kyle Vamvouris: A lot of the approaches I've seen from [00:10:00] you are direct mail pieces. Is that primarily, do you really like doing direct mail or is this just what I've stumbled upon? 

[00:10:08] Dale Dupree: So like, I think I I'm very romantic about this. I, I think back to you know, the Wells Fargo wagon, right? So people in town used.

[00:10:17] Dale Dupree: Screaming shot from the mountains. When the Wells Fargo man came to town, because they'd have everything that everybody had ordered from the cities, you know, to these rural areas to get it. And I, and, and in my head, that's still in his, in existence, that experience that you can give to people here, it's a guy at a brown shirt and they call him, you know, FedEx or UPS or whatever, or Amazon or whatever case is, but.

[00:10:42] Dale Dupree: The point being that when you get something that you can literally lay your hands on, right? Like imagine inside of this little envelope that there's coffee grounds in here when you post it, that you smell it. Right. And imagine that then when you start reading this, that it immerses you into this big experience that you just had.

[00:10:58] Dale Dupree: And, and meanwhile, every other [00:11:00] sales rep from any industry that's calling on you is doing it like this or like this and everything they say sounds exactly like everybody else. So immediately you create a differentiation and immediately when you finally make that phone call and that person actually connects with you when that timing is right.

[00:11:16] Dale Dupree: And I say, Hey, this is Dale, the copy warrior. it's, it's an immediate, oh, what's up like literally every time, every single time. Right. So, so it, it, it is about. It is about the experience we give people tangibly and sure, like we, we say that direct mail is good because listen, a lot of sellers these days, they sell all over the world, right.

[00:11:38] Dale Dupree: Or they sell all over the United States. They don't just sell in their backyard anymore. But imagine that for the most part that I delivered things like this by hand. And so I got to interact with the front desk and I even had little trinkets and fun stuff that I would leave with them as well too, to give them an immersive experience.

[00:11:54] Dale Dupree: Just the same. As part of my ultimate strategy of building those relationships inside of those [00:12:00] businesses and not just trying to get to my decision maker. The way that the world has shifted and looks at sales in 2022 is so much different than, than the romance of a copier warrior, building something epic that was legacy based and not just, you know, the millions of dollars I sold yearly and all the records I broke.

[00:12:18] Dale Dupree: It went beyond that. It went to, how do I build culture? How do I create an ecosystem? How do I build a family unit out of the people that I serve as well, too? How do I nuance that experience as well from person to person, to person. Build community between those people too. Right, right. Just cuz you're a CEO over here and this guy's the CEO over there doesn't mean that they've ever met.

[00:12:39] Dale Dupree: Right. And if I can be that conduit, then I can, I'm gonna have a much different reputation inside of my community. That's awesome. That's really, really cool story. 

[00:12:48] Kyle Vamvouris: So let me ask then now I wanna get a little bit tactical here cause I imagine so people are thinking this are. So you mentioned how you actually walked in, you would drop these things off.

[00:12:58] Kyle Vamvouris: Are you suggesting people mail [00:13:00] stuff? Now? 

[00:13:01] Dale Dupree: Both. I think the mail is, is very powerful because people just don't use it. Right. When they, when they use it, they use it for themselves and they get an Amazon box. Right. So something that comes from a different label from something they're not used to seeing.

[00:13:15] Dale Dupree: Right. It takes them back, especially those are the older generations. So whether they're baby boomers or gen X, the lost generation, right? Yeah. Even millennials at this point to an extent, right. Cuz we're starting to get old too. But the point is is that if we, when we do something like that, it's also very nostalgic, right.

[00:13:31] Dale Dupree: In a sense, and it feels like less of a shortcut to set an employment and more of a, a, a very well thought out concept and campaign to build something. 

[00:13:41] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah. Well, let me ask then how are you getting addresses for people? I imagine when COVID first happened, it was a pretty crazy change. 

[00:13:49] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah. So 

[00:13:49] Dale Dupree: here's two things that happened that were really cool that still exist today.

[00:13:53] Dale Dupree: One is called mail forwarding and the second is called digitizing the mail. And lemme just explain 'em real quick. So [00:14:00] when, when offices closed, I'm gonna tell you a story for everybody to hear too, from an actionable standpoint, when office is closed, what happened was is that there was still someone going in most cases, and if it was completely closed, right, people were still forward thinking about

[00:14:16] Dale Dupree: how do we get things like correspondence via mail, if we're still doing business like that, to some extent, or we need it. Right. So I'd say more than 90% of businesses, we're still receiving mail. Well, contrary to popular to belief or what people might think in their head. And I, and I, and I say that because of how many different segments of industry that are rebels at the time that were signed up in programs, whether they were teams or individuals what they represented and who they were calling on, anyone from bank of America down to like a financial advisor that had like one office and one employee around the corner that closed their office.

[00:14:51] Dale Dupree: Right. So we were, we were watching people. Set appointments throughout 2020 because of the uniqueness of what was happening. So whether it was like [00:15:00] once a week that someone would come in and check the mail and they would either divvy it out to people individually in person, or they would, they'd send it into their house, you know, in a big yeah.

[00:15:09] Dale Dupree: Manila envelope or the mailing system when they would get that address would say, oh, these are actually being forwarded to a center or to another person or to, to somewhere else. Right, right, right. And like a house. Right. So you were sending people mail to their house. You didn't even know it, you sent it to their office.

[00:15:27] Dale Dupree: And then the digitizing thing was even great. Better. Especially if you were using a letter campaign, someone would take this. And they would scan this in and they would email it to the person that was intended to get.

[00:15:37] Kyle Vamvouris: I see. 

[00:15:38] Dale Dupree: And they would typically give a little bit of a description on top of it. So they would like scan the envelope too.

[00:15:42] Dale Dupree: And so when you called 'em they knew every, they were like, yeah, I didn't actually get it, but they emailed it to me and that, and it looks like it was, it was, would've been pretty cool to. To have in my hands. Right. We got responses like that. So that would a long answer around 'em. But I'll tell you right now that two accounts, I can say the accounts are not like names of the companies that got to 'em.[00:16:00] 

[00:16:00] Dale Dupree: One was Aldi supermarkets, and one was bank of America and they were both set appointments were set using the mail during the pandemic. 

[00:16:09] Kyle Vamvouris: That's great. That's great. So as Steven actually typed a question in here that I think is a good one, which is how are you measuring the effectiveness of your physical male campaigns?

[00:16:19] Dale Dupree: Same way that you would measure great question, Steven, same way that you would measure like your email campaigns. So you get like you, you know, you get outreach or you've got HubSpot enterprise, whatever, you can see all your mail, that's going out. Who's opening it. How often? Right. Same kind of data.

[00:16:37] Dale Dupree: Okay. Here's the concept though, is that because we don't have the digital side list and you don't really even know if people are getting. These letters, simplistically, what we have to think about is rebels is how to connect with more than just our decision maker to make sure that our letter gets through A, and then B not to, to mass mail to 500 people, right?

[00:16:58] Dale Dupree: We do have some rebels that do that and actually [00:17:00] have had crazy enough have had really good success, mostly inbound leads and industries where they're not really getting that because people are getting their mail and calling and saying, it's very unique and I'd like to set up an appointment. But,

[00:17:13] Dale Dupree: let's just say, Steven though, we did 50 people. It's, it's a lot easier to track those 50 people, especially when we have return addresses on our envelopes. So let's say we get 10 back, only 40 made it right. We can now target those 40 people. And we use email and phone call as follow up mediums. Okay. So it's in LinkedIn or Instagram, or, you know, if that's your thing or TikTok, like whatever you're using to, to connect with people and we're just watching for indicators.

[00:17:40] Dale Dupree: Right? So, so if I'm using outreach and I'm sequencing in where I send letters, you know, I've got two emails that go out behind it. And two phone calls that hit as well too. And I'm watching the data on those things. And as soon as I've talked to 20 of the 40 people, and I know that all 20 people got my letter that I know all 40 people got my letter in most cases.

[00:17:58] Dale Dupree: Right. Or at least [00:18:00] 70 to 80%. Right. Right. Just based on historical data that I have or that other rebels have. And then furthermore, I can also. Better understand what those responses are like. So let's say 12 people out of the 20 are interested and five of 'em are like, never talk to me again. And three of 'em say something like, you know, our contracts are coming up in the future, keep us in mind.

[00:18:22] Dale Dupree: Right. Just keep in touch with us. Right. So now I got really good data there too. And I can, again, I can create segments around that type of response, but for us, it's all. Human interaction and connection, cuz I, I think the problem is, and, and Kyle might disagree with me on this, but the problem is that most data sucks because 

[00:18:39] Kyle Vamvouris: Sure.

[00:18:40] Dale Dupree: You just hit an email, a hit send on an email and we're like, whoa, I got an 80% open rig, but like, okay, six months later, what does that data actually do for you? In most cases when it comes to the bottom line, which is the result. Cause we can continue to get 80% open rates, but what about the conversion?

[00:18:56] Dale Dupree: Right. And so the data we're talking about is how do we lead to that conversion? How do we get to the, [00:19:00] to the, how do we reverse engineer the process? Instead of just saying like, yeah, let's get an open rate. We say, how do we get a result? That's where we go. Right. And everything in between is just data to help us get there.

[00:19:10] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah, really, really good call outs. And I think, look, the data piece is really important to me. I'm super passionate about data and, you know, things like open rates, reply rates, stuff like that. Like ultimately we want the result at the end of the day and we turn to those types of metrics as ways to diagnose why something isn't working now, I'm curious.

[00:19:30] Kyle Vamvouris: It look, the answer might just be super simple which is, oh, nobody, you know, nobody books a meeting or closes a deal through the campaign, but how are you diagnosing why a campaign didn't work if it didn't work or why it worked extraordinarily well, if that was the case. 

[00:19:46] Dale Dupree: Typically the campaigns that don't work just so everybody can hear is the ones that do not have sequences and that do not have multiple touch points.

[00:19:54] Dale Dupree: So if you just, if you just are like, oh, I'm gonna send this bottle and I'm gonna put a message in it. Oh, that's [00:20:00] clever. And you put a little cork and, you know, dress the bottle up real nice. And you send a hundred of 'em out, but you have nothing else to go behind it. You have zero sequencing in that you just, all you're doing is calling to try and hinge, get my bottle like over and over again, like yeah.

[00:20:12] Dale Dupree: Six months later, the problem is, is even if they did. It doesn't really matter at that point. Even if you talk to 'em and that's what I've found in my own experience. So for example, I got this copier brick here. It's one of my favorites. So this is a little instructured manual on like how to use the brick.

[00:20:27] Dale Dupree: Right. So it's got a dude throwing it up against the copy machine. And then this is the literal brick itself. It's a foam brick. Right. It's got the ridges and it looks very cool. Right. So, but like, here's the problem is that when I first did this, this thing works. Like you were saying earlier, there's probably nobody that doesn't book, like yeah, it works great.

[00:20:46] Dale Dupree: But let's say I'm targeting 50 people that 10 of 'em set an appointment from the drop. Well, I got 40 more people. Yeah, that I talk to. And if I don't talk to them for six more months, and this is the only thing I dropped, [00:21:00] it don't matter. You know, most people will say so like, oh yeah, I think I remember the brick.

[00:21:05] Dale Dupree: I think we threw it a couple times to some people how can I help you today? You know? And it's a much different interaction as opposed to like, yeah, that was hilarious. Thanks for dropping that off. Why don't you come by and talk to us sometime? Time is, is not only is it the currency of sales, but it's the enemy of sales people.

[00:21:21] Dale Dupree: In most cases, we, we, we let time go by so off so much. So often we forget that people have regular lives, right? outside of business, even, right? So like, let's say somebody went on a trip and they went to six different cities, the amount of experiences and memories that they just built up from the time they got your brick to all these things that have happened in their life outside of their eight to five.

[00:21:41] Dale Dupree: And the thing that you think they're doing every day, It's hard for people to be like, oh yeah, you're the brick guy. What's, you know, like it's different. Right? So sequencing like these letter campaigns that we sell, they have four letters. And then typically we customize like one digital version for people.

[00:21:58] Dale Dupree: And occasionally, you know, we'll have some rebels [00:22:00] that'll make like two new ones. On top of it, or, you know, so you can have multiple touches, but we find that four plus a digital version's highly effective. But again, like that could stretch out to three months of touch points. If you do it. 

[00:22:14] Kyle Vamvouris: Let's just dive a little deeper into that then.

[00:22:15] Kyle Vamvouris: So let we have a three month campaign. You're suggesting you're doing five you're you call 'em drops. Is that the, like the direct 

[00:22:23] Dale Dupree: calls we actually call 'em market tools. That's our like, rebellious name that we okay. Everyone. Cause it's, cuz it's a marketing piece at the end of the day and really it's a tool to build relationships, so, oh yeah.

[00:22:32] Kyle Vamvouris: I love that. I love that. So you're suggesting four market tools and are they just weaving in calls and like standard emails throughout that? Or is it just calls? Like what is the rest of the follow up look like? 

[00:22:43] Dale Dupree: We love non-traditional touch points, right? Yeah. So it's, it's awesome when you can do a call, but it's even better when you have a cell phone and you can just send a quick video and you can hold your letter up and be like, Hey, I'm the coffee stain guy.

[00:22:54] Dale Dupree: And there it's about familiarity in creating moments for people, right? So it's also about, [00:23:00] it's not about in our talk tracks and the way that we sequence things, whether it's email or phone call, it's not about, Hey, should we set up a 15 minute appointment? It's literally just asking them, did you get it? What you think? And because of this there's pressure, Josh Braun calls it the zone of resistance, the sore it's my favorite thing.

[00:23:16] Dale Dupree: Which psychologically like neuroscience and general psychology teaches us that people they'll judge you in the beginning of getting something like this. Right. Number one. And secondly, When they see that it's leading to something like an appointment to Southern a copier, they become resistant to an extent they're like, that was cool and all, but like, I don't know if I'm into this, right.

[00:23:37] Dale Dupree: So you have to think about again, advancing the experience and not forcing yourself through sequenced campaigns. Like. Into somebody's calendar, right? That the thought process here is, is that we're creating less resistance, right? Anybody with kids knows that the more resistance that you create, the harder it gets to handle those children.

[00:23:55] Dale Dupree: And they never stop doing that. I'm a 36 year old adult, and I still hate [00:24:00] it when people create it and kind of resistance. So if someone calls me and says, can I get 15 minutes on your calendar? I usually, this is literally what I say, Why? After they've even given me their pitch. I go, well, why would I do that?

[00:24:12] Kyle Vamvouris: Right. 

[00:24:13] Dale Dupree: Oh, so I can show you this stuff, like, but that, what does that have to do with me? What's in it, what's really in it for me. Like, how are you speaking to me? Why should I care? I'm super busy as it is. 

[00:24:22] Kyle Vamvouris: Right. 

[00:24:22] Dale Dupree: And I just heard something about how you can better my processes, like, okay, that was nice and generic.

[00:24:27] Dale Dupree: I loved it, but come on. Right. So, so really our sequencing and the way that we'd follow up with people and do touchpoints, even if it isn't an email, it literally, you know, imagine a subject line that says that crumpled letter dot, dot dot, and you're like, oh, And you open it and just says, did you throw it away?

[00:24:43] Dale Dupree: Question mark. Simple. Right, right. But imagine too that we can create experiences through these things. So for example, and I'll just, I'll just use this as the example, but we use QR codes on lots of stuff. So like we have business cards with QR codes in the bottom, right? Yeah. Sorry for it being all, all grainy.

[00:24:58] Dale Dupree: But [00:25:00] imagine that even in your emails, that there are ways for people to experience you through video. Landing pages can be set up for these types of sequencing as well, too. And then again, that you can just educate people radically that you can capture and gain attention that you can then maintain. And it's less about, let me sell you something and more about, I really like what this person is doing.

[00:25:20] Dale Dupree: I'm bought into this, I'm influenced by this. And I know that what they're selling, I need help with, even if I like what I'm getting totally. Right. Yeah. I've never really seen the second opinion or whatever the case is. There's, there's so many avenues, all salespeople understand this. Right. But, but again, it comes down to the bottom line of emotion.

[00:25:37] Dale Dupree: How do I create emotion in these moments for people? Yeah. So if I use a non-traditional approach, for example, like LinkedIn. Would absolutely never send somebody a note on LinkedIn. I would always use video and it's native format or using something like Vidyard which we highly recommend the sales rebellion or using something like a voice note directly on the platform.

[00:25:55] Dale Dupree: Right. Yeah. And I think that that's even powerful for things like a cell phone number. Right. So [00:26:00] imagine that you just send somebody a voice note instead of leaving them a voicemail. What's up Kyle it's Dale, the crazy weird dude that sent you that coffee stain letter. I just wanted to see if you got it.

[00:26:08] Dale Dupree: You laughed your butt off. And if your cup of Joe is sitting on it, right now. And, and by doing things like that in those nontraditional ways, using mediums that we all use every day, whether it's social media, whether it's a phone, whatever the case, it changes the game. 

[00:26:23] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah. It's super interesting. Now another question I have, and I know people are, are thinking, this is how like you just pulled up a squishy brick, like how did you make a squishy brick?

[00:26:36] Kyle Vamvouris: Do those come default? Were you born with a squishy brick? How does that happen? 

[00:26:43] Dale Dupree: My mom gave,

[00:26:48] Dale Dupree: so the brick is one piece the sequence, by the way, it's a baseball bat and there's a cement block. That's even bigger. 

[00:26:55] Kyle Vamvouris: Really, all squishy. 

[00:26:56] Dale Dupree: So here's all squishy. Here's the thing that people need to think about [00:27:00] is that in most cases, Somebody's made it or they can make it right. And think about, and, and what's amazing about the year 20 22 is not just how technology has evolved from the perspective of how it connects us.

[00:27:13] Dale Dupree: Right. Mm-hmm and how it creates simplicity and our workflows and automates and digitizes so much, but also how it can literally, you can make this at home. Right? With the right kind of equipment. Sure. You gotta drop like, you know, five or six grand on your own little 3d printer, but whatever. I mean, it's a great investment.

[00:27:32] Kyle Vamvouris: Right, right. 

[00:27:32] Dale Dupree: I don't, I don't sell 'em anymore. So I'm sitting here acting like I'm gonna make money off of it. Right. But, but the point is, is that, so like for example, there was a plastics manufacturer and my Terry and, and they would, they did plastic manufacturing and molding for massive organizations like Siemens or Paris free group or big guys like Lockheed Martin.

[00:27:53] Dale Dupree: Aerospace and like military defense, right? Well, I went to them and was like, Hey, could you make me like a custom, like a plastic [00:28:00] made custom gun, like a fake gun with the tip and everything. Through a particular gun manufacturer. They were called Knights armament in ti in Titus, Florida, so that I can use it to cold call them so, so a lot of my ideas came from these.

[00:28:16] Dale Dupree: I know I talked to, I preached against the one offs, but that's how I started. I started with the one offs I started with just like one thing to see what would happen. I started with, and by starting with one thing to just see what would happen, it turned into saying, okay, cool. If I nuanced this, and if I create a sequence out of this, then it gets better and better.

[00:28:31] Dale Dupree: But guys and girls that are listening to think about this, like you can just like print a bigger version of a business card, right? So you can take something very true. You can start with something traditional like this and make four versions of it that you're sending people. They can graduate to these, and you can have multiple versions of them with you and Chuck Norris, you know, saving the world, whatever it looks like.

[00:28:51] Dale Dupree: Fighting copying machines like your moral combat . And, but the thought is, is that when you nuance these things and when you create consistency around multitudes of [00:29:00] touch pieces, you'll change the game drastically for yourself and thinking about it, like the letter campaign and, and the business cards are paper.

[00:29:06] Dale Dupree: They're just paper. It's very simple to do so. So don't be too overwhelmed by saying something like a foam brick or hearing some of these stories because you can, you can simplify these things as well too, and make it very easy on your. 

[00:29:19] Kyle Vamvouris: So I wanna open up for Q and A from everyone else. I've been kind of pulling from them as I see 'em.

[00:29:23] Kyle Vamvouris: So if you guys have questions, throw 'em in the chat. Now we're gonna do a session of a Q and A, but I do have one more question here for you. How I'm I'm curious how you help. I'm actually, this is now an official plug, so sorry if you guys don't leave, this is not a planned thing. I actually am just curious.

[00:29:39] Kyle Vamvouris: How do you help people actually do this? Cause this seemed very you, by the way, that's why I'm asking. Cause like the, all the stuff you just pulled up is like you stamped, printed all over it. Like how do you help people do this for themselves? 

[00:29:52] Dale Dupree: Yeah. See, and that's the best part, right? Is that most of the stuff we do show is us.

[00:29:56] Dale Dupree: If you're in the rebel slack though which you can get to off of our website, just [00:30:00] poke around, you'll find it. There's a community. If you're listening and you're not in it, like we'll drop things in there for people to see. But for the most part, when we create something exclusive for somebody, we want it to be theirs.

[00:30:10] Dale Dupree: We don't really want to use it for promotion for ourself necessarily, unless it's just really that much of a banger. And we think that it can be used for, for multiple people, multiple industries, right. When it comes down to it, for the most part, what we do is we just help individuals to figure out their thing.

[00:30:25] Dale Dupree: We back 'em throughout the whole process and, and we get them to that, that end result that they desire where they, by the time they're done coaching with us, they have sequences. They have, but really, honestly, God, we start with things letter campaign for people, and it creates a significant increase in their business to the point where, you know, suddenly they see a 60% and, and net new sales and net new appointments.

[00:30:47] Dale Dupree: And. You know, cross the board for a team and, and you're kind of done at that point in regards to like trying to earn your way in now you're the standard. And then, and then we get from there, we don't have to prove ourselves anymore. We get creative freedom [00:31:00] at the, in those moments as well. And so that we customize things or we use prepackaged concepts as well, too.

[00:31:05] Dale Dupree: But the ultimate point of saying all that is there's two types of programs that people can go through there's teams and there's individuals, and sure we do. We do. We go through the, the basics of sales as well, too. We have our own selling system invasion. We have our own pipeline concept, the living pipeline.

[00:31:22] Dale Dupree: We have our roots. We have our rebel reason. We have a lot of different modules and, and identity that we attach into a program of people, but everything is driven by creativity. So even in the way that we tell people to, to shake their day up a little bit, and some of the things that we assign rebels to do that sometimes make people scratch their head.

[00:31:41] Dale Dupree: Like what, you know, there's a creative element to it and a risk factor and, and a, a way to kinda get people outta their comfort zone and in a place where. They're growing right? And so the, the, the creative campaigns stem from all those things, very simply. But you can, it's as simple as also going to [00:32:00] crumpled and just buying our letter campaign and doing it yourself, if you want to, we don't, we don't want to be creating resistance even

[00:32:08] Dale Dupree: through our own product offering. We want people to be able to say, like, I don't really wanna deal with the rebellion, but I love that I love their ideas. And to just say, cool, I can buy this letter campaign and then I can do it myself. And I can be a rebel without having to go through six months of coaching.

[00:32:23] Dale Dupree: Right. So, so at the end of the day, we're trying to create something very simple for people. And, and like we said before, and I see Joanne, Sarah, shout out to, to Joanne. Rebels that are in the rebel slack, Man, they, those guys and girls throw ideas at each other all day long, which we then, you know, collaborate with them on a little bit, put our stamp of approval and, and off to the races, you know?

[00:32:43] Dale Dupree: So we've, we've heard stories of people for free being in the rebel, slack, coming up with ideas and setting appointments with a hundred million companies, right. For, for an appointment that I never could, could get, you know, like five years have been trying to get in this place. And I finally did it. So that's, that's the long answer to your [00:33:00] short question.

[00:33:01] Kyle Vamvouris: No, it's great. I mean, I just love you know, I was in the arts a lot when I was growing up, like as a kid, I was in theater. I did standup comedy for five years. Like I love this creative side and it is difficult like once you know, once an organization gets its scale, it's hard to make that almost part of your culture.

[00:33:19] Kyle Vamvouris: Right. And a lot of what you've described, it feels very individual to me where it's like, yeah, I'm a person at a company there's a high you know, monetary incentive for me to invest in new, the creative ways of prospecting in order to build my own book of business. You definitely have examples of this, but talk to me a bit about the company side.

[00:33:40] Kyle Vamvouris: Like, do you work with a lot of companies who try to embed this into all their employees as like a cultural thing? Tell me a bit about that. 

[00:33:47] Dale Dupree: We got a ton of, of companies and, and that, and that's exactly, that's exactly what you're saying is that they say, alright, we want everybody to participate in this.

[00:33:55] Dale Dupree: And we, we make it again to where, like, it's easy. So you got somebody on the team that they're [00:34:00] not used to this kind of stuff. They don't necessarily know that they even want to do it, 

[00:34:03] Kyle Vamvouris: right. 

[00:34:04] Dale Dupree: We're not there to become dictators and tell people that without this, you're not gonna make money. People are

[00:34:09] Dale Dupree: ultra successful in sales without creativity, right? End of day. Right? For us, it's about focusing on like, what's gonna make you happy. What's gonna, what's gonna set you up for a better life. What's gonna create more success at home and not just in the workplace. Right. We think so much deeper because this, that might sound great.

[00:34:28] Dale Dupree: But the first time that someone tells you, yo, that crumpled letter was awesome. And has this conversation with you that that is so different. It's magnificent is the best way to describe, different from the typical yeah, thanks for the call. And actually we are looking for that service and, and what you said is interesting to me instead, like people are like stoked to get you on the phone and best, you know, the first time and things happened.

[00:34:52] Dale Dupree: Like I can, I'll never forget the first time somebody said to me, we pass your entire office. Every single employee of this company has seen it. [00:35:00] And there was like 200 people at this company. And I thought to myself, well, that's probably, I thought to, that's probably a lie, right? It's first, first of what I, oh, I thought, but like at the same time, this emotion took over.

[00:35:11] Dale Dupree: That was so different than what salespeople feel. And by the time that we had gotten to the, to the end result, and I'm shaking this man's hand, and he's not just saying, thank you for hooking us up or for the great price or this guy is saying, Hey, you've really changed the way that we think about this stuff.

[00:35:26] Dale Dupree: You've really, you've given us a great experience. I want, I wanna be able to tell your bosses to give, wanna be able to, to help you build your business with people in my circles. It's a life changing moment. So that's really with teams, especially, that's what we're striving to do. Individuals is very easy, right?

[00:35:42] Dale Dupree: Cuz you come, you commit to me or one of my rebel coaches and we bang it up, bro. We take you to the promise line and we do it in a way that hurts sometimes. But that's the whole point, right? Nothing in life worth doing was ever easy, right. To begin with. And so we take these. These very intense approaches, but we take very principled stances on [00:36:00] things.

[00:36:00] Dale Dupree: We meet people where they are, and we help 'em to find their own promise land, not the rebellions, not what we think you should be doing or where you, we think you should be going, but on your own. And when teams mash and do this stuff, a great example is all tech imaging, anybody that needs a copier in Pennsylvania and the state of Pennsylvania or anywhere near like Philly.

[00:36:19] Dale Dupree: Philadelphia area, call these guys, ask for Adam or Scott Flaherty. They'll put you into the bullpen. These guys don't just use what we set up for them. We started with crumpled letters with these guys. These homies turned it into their own office, like superhero concept, the office equipment, the legends of the office, equipment sellers, something along those lines.

[00:36:41] Dale Dupree: I'm probably botching this. Hopefully Adam's here laughing.. Right. But they each have their own themed concept. Right? Like we just put one in the Rob slack the other day have a kid, he calls himself the text sensei. Okay. And he's on this team and he, he, he delivers sushi boxes with sticks and everything. And inside is a crumpled letter, [00:37:00] but it's his version of it.

[00:37:01] Dale Dupree: He goes at the sushi letter. Right. And it it's brilliant magnificent. The things that these people are doing, but this, this stems from the identity of having an entire team. 

[00:37:11] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah. 

[00:37:12] Dale Dupree: Unleashing their own creativity. After using the stuff that we, we prepackaged to see the results and go, this is really good.

[00:37:19] Dale Dupree: How do we take this to the next level and changing the game? 

[00:37:22] Kyle Vamvouris: So here's another question. What about on the marketing side? So we've talked a lot about sales people doing this type of outreach. I imagine you marketing people are like, Hey, can a company send a crumple letter or does it have to be an individual?

[00:37:35] Kyle Vamvouris: Is that a special experience that human to human reaction? 

[00:37:39] Dale Dupree: Really good question, Kyle. And, and so here's the thing is, is we believe wholeheartedly at the sales rebellion that sales and marketing are much more intertwined than people like to admit that they are. 

[00:37:51] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah. 

[00:37:51] Dale Dupree: And that they're much more powerful as a team, as a unit.

[00:37:54] Dale Dupree: And, and so when we think about marketing, we think about marketing and individual. There's no difference really [00:38:00] in our mind of marketing the company as well, too. So we mark the company as. The conduit, right. Essentially to the individual. If we, if we're doing it that way, right. From, from the perspective again of.

[00:38:12] Dale Dupree: We have the right people, right. But we're, we're, we're promoting the company through this crumpled letter, but we have the, we have the people that are in place that are willing, that are able, that that will help and support and to that degree. Right. So, so even when we use the company, we still point back, listen, people do business with people.

[00:38:30] Dale Dupree: At the end of the day, if you wanna do business with the company, get on Amazon and the majority of people that do that, they bitch and moan and complain about it. Anyway, bro, we all know we've been to the site to see the true star one star, you know, craft that McDonald's and all these manufactured companies that are selling something get from, from the world of the commodity buyer.

[00:38:50] Kyle Vamvouris: Right. 

[00:38:50] Dale Dupree: Right. Why put yourself into that position in the first place, especially when there are tons of people out there that are willing to spend a little bit more or even [00:39:00] less if, if you're able to be competitive like that. Right. But, but regardless to be with you as opposed to something else in the first place.

[00:39:08] Dale Dupree: So I think the, to me like the question or the, the thought about overall on this side of how marketing works and how sales works. It's really the, well, you gotta intertwine these things a lot more effectively. We can't like MQL and SQLs. I get why we do that. But listen, ladies and gentlemen, it is doing nothing in most cases for, for y'all except pitting people up against each other.

[00:39:31] Dale Dupree: Right. But we 800 M QLS this week and there was only five SQLs from the SDR team. Right. Right. Well, they're like, this is the problem. People look at it. Metric space. They don't say. 25 of these 800 MQL S are really ultra qualified. They show intent. The people on the other side are companies that we wanna do.

[00:39:51] Dale Dupree: We did a little research for like, yo Walmart's in here, what's going on? You know, like there's, there is a lot of really cool data in there that we tend to not even look [00:40:00] at in the first place. And so if the company is adopting and adapting to the same type of rebel consistency around the perspective of content and creative marketing like this.

[00:40:10] Dale Dupree: It, it just superpowers it, bro, because imagine a company helping you send yours or supporting you by sending yeah. Their own versions of things on top of your individual effort, it skyrockets your business. 

[00:40:24] Kyle Vamvouris: That's awesome. Awesome stuff. Yeah. If your company can, you know, what actually would be kind of cool.

[00:40:29] Kyle Vamvouris: And I think Steven brought this up he brought up a 3d printer. Have you seen anybody just buy a 3d printer and just start 3d printing stuff to be mail to their. 

[00:40:37] Dale Dupree: I haven't seen people do it to mail stuff in, but I, I, I know a couple of people that have like four or $500 3d printers. That's why I mentioned it earlier, but like the, the dope ones are like three grand, by the way.

[00:40:48] Dale Dupree: But, but yeah. Yeah, you can get a four or $500 3d printer. No problem. And you can start having a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Right. And the best part about it is most of the material is like foam or it's [00:41:00] plastic. It's very inexpensive. And, and you don't have to say things like I gotta go to the store and buy all this stuff and piece mail it together.

[00:41:05] Dale Dupree: You literally created right there in, in the Palm of your hand. 

[00:41:09] Kyle Vamvouris: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, I, I can think of a lot of, you know, cool ways to use a 3d printer to try to create some of this stuff. And that Steven brought up that you can get 'em for like 300 bucks now, and you're right. The nice ones are expensive, but I mean, even that probably is stands out.

[00:41:24] Kyle Vamvouris: Just the fact that one of the things you said, go ahead. 

[00:41:27] Dale Dupree: Let me just say this real quick. I think not enough people hear this. I was making at the time that I started to decide to, to do the very creative things that I've done. I was making less than $50,000 a year. Okay. Literally, and, and, and up until then, My story is intense.

[00:41:45] Dale Dupree: Right. My wife and I combined were making like 28 grand a year in the beginning of my copier career. Right. I had to work three jobs just to pay bills. Right. And, and here's the thing about all that is that one day, what I recognize is that if I can, if I can push. Two or [00:42:00] $3,000 to the side, save up a little bit of my money, push it to the side, stop doing things like buying this, you know, being addicted to that.

[00:42:07] Dale Dupree: And I say that in all sincerity, cuz I was, I smoked cigarettes. Right. I quit all that stuff in this process. Right. I, I sat back and said, if I can invest into myself a little bit, I wonder what would happen. I made a video for 2,500 bucks, like highly produced. You can still find it on YouTube. It's got like eight or 9,000 organic views.

[00:42:26] Dale Dupree: I've never promoted through paid advertising. And, and everything in the beginning stages of it being on YouTube, everything that drove to it was literally off of these, these business cards that I showed you earlier down at the bottom, where it says copier You had to type it in. And by the time I was putting QR codes on things in 2011 and 12, bro, anybody with an iPhone nowadays or an Android could just, you know, just scan one back then, bro, you had to download stuff and you agree to third party shit.

[00:42:56] Dale Dupree: And like it, it was difficult. Right? So, so think about this for a second. [00:43:00] Like I, I put 2,500 bucks into this thing and overnight it had a thousand views, like almost immediately, it had a thousand views just from me passing like a hundred of these cards out. Right? So that's, that's powerful from the perspective again, of if you're putting the right kind of money into yourself, like, like don't put it in crypto, cuz that's a long term investment, for example, put it in something that returns immediately that gives people, experiences.

[00:43:22] Dale Dupree: That video changed my life. I went from making that sick, like 50 ish thousand dollars a year. And all of a sudden it's it's 2012. I'm making $180,000 my first six figure year. Right. And I never went any lower than that number and I did nothing but go higher and higher year in and year out. And what I did is I would put thousands of dollars to the side because my company wasn't interested in paying for these things and I'd say, I'll do it.

[00:43:47] Dale Dupree: Cuz I see what happens right. With the results. So if you're listening to this and you're like, yo. I would never spend $3,000 on a 3d printer. That's why you're never gonna be part of the 1% of sellers. You're never gonna be a [00:44:00] copy reward. Right. And I'm not saying that to be rude. I'm saying that to help you to envision something better for yourself, never say never take the risks and listen.

[00:44:08] Dale Dupree: Even the times that I failed that I spent a ton of money, right. It was so freaking worth it because I learned a ton. I became a much better steward of my time of my finances of other people experiences with me. And I got to that point where everything that I started to do was hyper quality and that hyper quality that leads to hyperpersonalization leads to, you know, it feels that way at least to people.

[00:44:31] Dale Dupree: And it leads to very unique experiences.

[00:44:34] Kyle Vamvouris: I think its a beautiful place to to end this. Thanks so much for hopping on having a conversation. And why don't you shout out where people can find you. 

[00:44:41] Dale Dupree: Hey, and I appreciate you putting this on and allowing us to be a part of this. Anybody watching this that's in my tribe.

[00:44:48] Dale Dupree: Kyle's the man. Follow him on LinkedIn. Check his company out. They do excellent work in, in the sales training space as well too. So check them out. Awesome organization. And if you wanna find me head to sales, [00:45:00], the sales tons of information on the company there. We're launching our new website here in the next hopefully month or so at the latest you're all gonna wanna see it.

[00:45:08] Dale Dupree: It's dope. If you wanna follow me for just content com your warrior, or you can head to TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, all those at sales rebellion, you can find me anywhere. Come join the rebellion. Come find this free slack channel and come hang out. 

[00:45:24] Dale Dupree: Beautiful. 

[00:45:25] Kyle Vamvouris: Well, thanks so much everybody. We'll all connect soon.

[00:45:27] Kyle Vamvouris: And thanks again, Dale. I appreciate it. 

[00:45:30] Dale Dupree: Cheers, bro.